November 25th 2010 Minutes
Johnstone Community Council
Minutes of the ordinary meeting of Johnstone Community Council held on Thursday 25th November 2010 at 7.00pm in Johnstone Town Hall.
Present
Robert Campbell, Stewart Clark, Elizabeth Cosgrove, Wilma Dean, Chris Gilmour, David Higginson, Pamela Higginson, George Kennedy, Dennis Lavery, Valerie Reilly and Isabella Wishart.
Also in attendance:-
Councillors (Ward 7) – John Caldwell, John Hood, Tracie McGee, Iain McMillan.
(Ward 8) –Neil Bibby, Bruce McFee.
1. Apologies
Rosalyn Gilmour.
2. Minutes
The minutes of the previous meeting were approved.
Proposed by Elizabeth Cosgrove
Seconded by Dennis Lavery
3. Matters Arising
There were no matters arising.
4. Sports Hub Proposals
Liz Jamieson of Renfrewshire Council and Joyce McKellar of Renfrewshire Leisure Trust were introduced by Chris Gilmour. JMcK offered to clarify the plans and to answer any questions. The CC had a prepared list of questions which were put to the officials by CG.
He began by stating that the initial sports hub proposals were to allow limited public access outwith school usage hours.
JCC and others have raised objections to these proposals, what changes have been made following these objections?
In particular:-
Q1. Can we now know what access we the public will have to all of the facilities and
Q2. What will be the hours of access for the public?
Q3. Bus services are limited, in particular in the evening to this proposed facility what extra provision has been made to redress this situation?
JMcK answered that there would be access for the public during the day to the pool (and to the fitness gym from 7am to 10pm) but that at times the access might be shared with school use. There may be exclusive school use a couple of times per week – it was hoped that these would not disrupt the busiest times for the public. On buses – it is still too early for SPT to change timetables but work is being done with current and possible future operators.
Q4. The area opposite the proposed facility has been described recently as lawless; access to the rear of Johnstone High School is by unlit paths which are not overlooked. Has the proposal included additional street lighting at rear and in front of the hub and if so to what extent?
Planning are looking at lighting to the rear and there will also be new lighting at the front for the building, car park, synthetic pitch and a new path in from the Bus Stop.
Q5. What discussions have taken place with Strathclyde police as to the safety and security of non car driving public accessing the proposed facility on foot or by bicycle?
It has been considered for both pedestrian access and those in cars. There are ongoing discussions with Strathclyde Police about diversionary tactics and a programme is being developed.
Q6. Have Strathclyde Police been consulted to provide crime figures for the proposed area, including the Howwood Road Scheme and to advise on security measures required to safeguard the public resorting to this facility?
Strathclyde Police have had input into the planning stage on lighting.
Q7. It would appear that there will be a limited car park for users but no drive in facility for buses taking people safely to and from the hub.
Has a CCTV. System been planned for the exterior of the hub?
Buses will be using the school turning circle and the Beith Road bus stop where a new path in to the complex will be created. A car park will be created sufficient for the numbers expected to use the centre. CCTV will be set up and monitored from within the centre.
Q8. I believe that one end of the proposed pool will be only .8m deep. Surely this will limit the pool’s use for qualified swimmers who wish to dive or perform racing turns?
The pool will range from 0.9m to 1.3m which is adequate for teaching swimming. It is not intended to be a competition standard pool – it is aimed at training and leisure.
Q9. There is no kiddies’ pool proposed. Surely this excludes access to the facility to children of nappy wearing age i.e. up to the age of four and a half years? Or has this facility been designed with some new and up till now unknown, system to safeguard the swimmers from serious illness caused by Cryptosporidium infection from faecal contamination.
Children will be encouraged to wear swim nappies, and in any case cryptosporidium doesn’t only originate from babies. Good water management systems prevent contamination. Only a handful of cases of cryptosporidium have ever been tied in to swimming pools.
Q10. Has the design of the pool’s filtration and hygiene management system taken into account the latest proposed new guidance being considered by The National Reference Group (NHS)?
Renfrewshire Council and Renfrewshire leisure may at some stage be considered to be discriminatory by excluding some members of the public from this proposed facility by disregarding their needs.
This list is not extensive but will include the needs of non car users (including the less well off), the elderly, young mothers and pre-school children, immune deficiency sufferers, none of these groups seem to have been properly considered in the proposals.
Renfrewshire Council has employed an expert on water filtration to work with them and the contractors. The building will be fully accessible to the less able and there will be no reason for those with immune-deficient systems not to use it. Everything that can be taken into consideration has been.
Having completed the pre-prepared questions CG went on to ask when did the process to consider the changes to the swimming pools begin?
LJ answered that in autumn 2008 there was a proposal to look at the area's aging swimming facilities. By October 2008 the Cl. had created a project team. This worked on a range of proposals, undertook consultation and prepared options which were put to the Council in June 2009.
CG asked if we could be told the number of people and the age range of those consulted in Johnstone? JMcK said that they had spoken to those who were known to have an interest in the pool and that street interviews had taken place in December 2009. Fifteen people were invited to form a focus group. 260 people were consulted and there was an online survey with between 6and 7 hundred responses from across Renfrewshire. Annual pool user survey information was also utilised.
CG noted that consulting the groups who use the pool will mean that their needs will be taken into consideration, but what about the general public users?
JMcK answered that the annual survey undertaken since 2003 takes into account all pool users.
CG further enquired if the question was ever asked in terms of what was their opinion about closing the pool?
JMcK “No.”
DL stated that he was a pool user and that the news had come as a bolt from the blue. No survey had asked him about closing the pool. It seemed to him that the decision making process was really between the Leisure Trust and the Cl. – the Trust appears to be acting as an arm of Renfrewshire Cl. when it is supposed to be an independent body.
LJ answered that the Trust receives £3.7million from the Cl. to manage the facilities.
DL felt that the independence of the Trust is questionable and that it was a pawn of the politicians.
LJ replied that the recommendation for the pools came from a project group made up of officials and that JMcK had worked as a seconded officer of the Cl. on the project group – not as an employee of Renfrewshire Leisure Trust.
JMcK added that the Trust had approached the Cl. for an upgrade and then had worked on the project group to ensure the best result for RLT, which is based at the Lagoon, not Renfrewshire Council HQ.
CG asked how much was being paid now to keep the Johnstone pool open?
JMcK replied that RLT was doing appropriate maintenance to ensure the pool’s proper operation until its closure. The last major refurbishment was done in 2005 but, unfortunately, was not done to the correct standard.
CG asked whether RLT has any recourse to correct this.
JMcK said that some money had been received as compensation for bad workmanship, but that the new windows have not lasted. There are also problems with plant – the air conditioning system is ‘shot’ – major money is required.
DL asked whether the 1990s pool in Erskine would be demolished when the new High School is built?
LJ answered that there were no plans to move to a new pool at the moment, though it may be possible in the future.
Wilma Dean asked what would happen about swimming lessons for children in Johnstone and Elderslie schools?
JMcK answered that Johnstone schools would use the new pool at the High School whereas Elderslie Primary will be directed to Linwood.
WD asked about lessons for the Catholic schools?
JMcK replied that they would use whichever pool was most economical.
CG asked if this meant that the Cl. couldn’t afford to bus children to school, but could afford to bus them to pools?
Cl. BMcF answered that it was the same situation as at present – it is the parents’ responsibility to get children to school and the schools’ responsibility to get them to lessons.
Elizabeth Cosgrove asked why there had been suggestions of moving the bus stop.
JMcK replied that when that had been said she had not been aware that there was already an inshot for the busses to pull into.
Cl. H asked if all schools that use the present pool will be accommodated?
LJ says that still needs to be fully planned.
Cl. H commented that the Autistic Society uses the present pool twice a week. They were never consulted about any planned closure and that it is well known that change is difficult for autistic children to cope with.
LJ replied that it would probably be possible to offer the society a special visit before the new pool opens.
From the floor, Margaret Lavery said that she had been involved in ‘proper’ consultations and that this did not appear to fulfil the criteria. She asked if there had been any consideration of the financial impact for town centre shopkeepers who currently derive great benefit from occasions when swimming galas are run. She commented that this seemed to be a case of robbing Johnstone to give to Linwood.
LJ replied that the Cl.’s Economic Development Department have done large consultations with shopkeepers, and that this had been after the proposals were published.
Cl. McF added that were already significant problems in Johnstone’s centre and that the status quo would not have provided improvement.
A question from the floor asked why there was to be no ‘walk-into’ pool for the youngest users.
JMcK replied that a separate pool was beyond the finances but that lessons for children of 3+ were already taking place in the ordinary pools.
Cl. McF added that this question had been raised some time ago and after looking at the situation the decision had been made to make the new pool slightly shallower.
WD asked where will toddlers go?
JMcK answered that the new Linwood pool would have a moveable floor so toddlers would be catered for there.
GK stated that he didn’t believe that a ‘kiddies’ pool had been considered until JCC had raised the issue. In consultations were the right people asked, and were they asked the right questions? His belief was that the new pool would eventually be handed over exclusively to the High School. He also felt that the new pool was being sited in an unsafe area and would exclude those who can’t afford taxis. The Cl. could not guarantee what would happen with the bus companies.
LJ replied that this was a strategic proposal using a limited budget to the best effect across Renfrewshire. A ‘kiddies’ pool was discussed and was costed again later in light of comment.
JMcK added that the current Johnstone ‘kiddies’ pool was underutilised.
Cl. B asked about pool hours. Allowing time for local schools, why can’t we get a statement on the number of hours available for public use? When will we know?
LJ stated that it was expected that shared use of the pool would continue and JMcK added that it was not yet known what would be the hours for exclusive school use.
Cl. B commented that this decision was not popular and that people were unhappy for a lot of reasons – but in part because they do not appreciate vague answers.
JMcK replied that it was expected that the percentage of time for community use of the pool would be around the 80% mark and it was thought that exclusive school use may be as little as 15%.
EC asked why the pool was being moved to the High School who have managed without a pool for some time – swimming is not even on the curriculum there?
JMcK replied that it was hoped that the move would encourage the pupils’ leisure use of the pool.
Cl. McM commented that there was great disappointment in Johnstone and that the people there have a very different view from that of RLT. They face losing a town centre facility which will have an economic impact through loss of the custom of the galas bringing hundreds of people to the town. He found it hard to believe – as someone at the pool 4 or 5 times a week – that the ‘kiddies’ pool was underused. And how would the new smaller pool cope if swimming was added to the curriculum at Johnstone High with its 1200 pupils? He also remarked on the original plans having no thought for lighting for the rear path and the vagueness of the security measures in a pitch dark area. He felt that the situation had been badly handled and that the current pool could have been developed to the standard of a first-class facility.
Cl. McF said that it was not fair to ask about pool hours and that there has been much movement since the proposal was first mooted. The RLT was now almost at the point of being able to say that there would no exclusive school time. The issue of cryptosporidium will be looked at again in light of information coming from very recent conferences – but that it is easier to contain such infections in newer pools. As for security, the police should be asked about statistics for Johnstone town centre and that it was the least liked town centre in Renfrewshire at night. He added that all changes are disliked by some but that Johnstone would be getting a new pool which was sustainable in the long term.
DL commented that no-one here had seen the survey questions and therefore had no way of knowing whether the questions had been biased. The politicians of all colours are not trusted in Johnstone and need to regain the trust of the townsfolk.
JMcK replied that stand alone pools are never cost effective today, and that they need to be part of a mix of facilities. RLT had to grow the dry side of the business in order to grow income. Other councils have demonstrated successful co-use with schools. It is users that keep facilities going and today it is the fitness business that keeps leisure facilities alive.
From the floor Danny McKay commented that if there was no use of the pool for those who are members he will resign his membership when it is moved to the School.
From the floor ML asked who are the new users that RLT seems to be anticipating?
Cl. McF answered that he would be one as he considered Johnstone’s current facilities to be in a shocking state.
At that point CG drew the question session to a close and thanked JMcK and LJ who left the meeting.
5.1 Band stand and Regeneration Project
GK reported that the work on the bandstand was now 99% complete with only a couple of small snagging points to be attended. However, there was no money for a sound system.
Further to past problems with flags in Houston Square, the Saltire had now been stolen but was imminently to be replaced.
5.2 Scheme for the Establishment of Community Councils
GK noted that we are still awaiting final consideration of proposals, but that the Renfrewshire-wide CC Forum was preparing to put funding matters to the Cl. on 16th December.
The new scheme is expected to be implemented early in new year.
6. Treasurer’s Report
DH reported that JCC is still in credit with funds standing at £5781.53. Payments are still due to Wains World.
7. Planning Report
DL commented on a licence application relating to 34 High Street saying that the form doesn’t actually give any meaningful information other than it is to be another off sales.
There have been some changes to Planning laws, but DL as yet has not received details.
Cl. McF commented that this was probably in terms of delegating more powers to homeowners – although it should be noted that even if planning consent was not required for a particular proposal, a Building Warrant would still be needed.
DL reported that he had confirmed that an application from Wm Tracy referred to a piece of land beside the cycle track that they want to use for recycling. He added that Tracy’s always tries to be a good neighbour.
8. Secretary’s Report
GK reported on a visit to W.R.C. on 25th. November 2010. One point was noticeably different – they have cleared an area at the Floors Street entrance meaning that more lorries can enter the yard at one time leading to less congestion in the street outside. Another inspection will take place in the new year.
From the floor, JCC was thanked for its ongoing efforts over this problematical situation.
Gk replied that a number of agencies (some 14 different bodies) have inspected this yard and are aware of the issues – but sometimes the law doesn’t go far enough to help. He was still hopeful that discussion will help to resolve issues and noted that he had spoken to them that day about the possibility of more screening.
DL again raised the contention that the council would not allow WRC to move to Renfrew unless everything was put under cover.
Cl. McF added that he had checked this and that there had, in fact, been no formal application to the Cl. and that this had probably come from some sort of informal discussions.
From the floor ML asked how such a facility did get permission in the first place and why weren’t the Cl. doing something about it?
Cl. McF answered that the permission goes back a long way, and would have been given on the information available at the time. The Planning Authority can only intervene if they are acting against their permissions. The Cl. could not have taken away permission for what was an established use – Burnthills had previously done recycling on the site.
GK added that JCC is liaising with the company and that the Cl. have responded. If WRC don’t continue to improve JCC will ask questions of the other interested bodies.
CG commented that we have had some success with the movement of lorries and we should take one step at a time.
Scott Allen, Head of Roads will attend JCC. meeting on 27th January 2011. In the meantime streets that want grit bins should write to Graham Wylie. EC asked whether de-registered T&RAs would be able to apply for bins.
GK suggested channelling such requests through the Secretary of JCC.
Youth Club Funding. GK noted that current funding will run out on 31st March 2011. He has recently attended two seminars on funding and hopes to go to a further seminar on the ‘Cashback for Communities’ scheme in December.
Cl. McF asked if JCC was considered for one of the five LAC groups for matching funds to any given by external funders.
GK noted that he was hopeful that the two funds currently targeted would give us another year of operation.
An Orange Order wreath has been destroyed by fire on War Memorial plinth. This was reported at 9am the next morning and the police are continuing to investigate. They are taking the issue very seriously. Unfortunately the CCTV has again come up with nothing – it seems to have no value in crime prevention and JCC needs to ask questions of the Chief Executive.
From the floor ML noted that all wreaths have now been removed and asked if they had been stolen?
9. AOCB
CG stated that he had heard a rumour that the Civic Amenity site in Miller Street was to close and asked was this true?
Cl. McM replied that there was a review going on but that he was aware of no question of closure.
DL asked about the lighting situation in the shopping arcade.
GK replied that Rosemount had wanted to continue with work on the arcade early in 2010, but that the Co-op had withdrawn their promise of funding. Efforts to get any answer from Rosemount are not currently succeeding.
Cl. McF agreed that all the efforts put in by JCC and the council officials had been an utter waste of time.
A question was raised about a drive-thro’ burger bar to be sited at Lidl’s. No-one knew anything about this.
From the floor W. McLelland raised the matter of three objects that he had given to the Johnstone History Society Museum at Morrisons, but which had never appeared on display.
GK agreed to look into this if the details were passed to him.
CG thanked all those who had attended the meeting, not only at this meeting, but at all JCC meetings throughout the year. He wished everyone a Happy and Peaceful Christmas.
There being no further business the meeting closed at 9.00pm.
The next meeting will be held at Johnstone Town Hall on Thursday 27th January 2011 at 7pm.